Wednesday, December 31, 2008

Dissenting from My Dissent

Well, I tried to dissent from the debate, but now Seth Abramson has yet another lengthy and thought-provoking entry on his blog, to which I want to steer this blog's readers, in part because I generally agree with his analysis.

I have two dissents, though. One regarding his statement that "it's all very well to call Mark Doty a Quietist--fair enough, if the term's to mean what Ron intends it to mean--but there's a reason Mark Doty isn't particularly widely read by today's MFA students, and it's because that quality of his verse Ron is attempting to capture by calling him a Quietist is evident, too, to MFA students." The second regarding his statement that "thousands of poets ... are falling through the cracks of today's poetry terminology, and ... their poetry is therefore in danger of being relegated to premature obscurity...."

First, the implication that a poet who is "not widely read among today's MFA students" must be a bad poet is nonsense. It's nonsense because it privileges the taste of a small subgroup of specialists over the taste of the public at large. Surely the taste of any subgroup—tugboat captains, press secretaries, professors of linguistics, janitors—is not automatically better or worse than any other subgroup's, including MFA students.

Second, "today's poetry terminology" has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not a particular poet's work is finally "relegated to obscurity." (This is an amusing idea, by the way: "premature obscurity." It tacitly recognizes that the vast majority of poets will be thus relegated in the long run.) Was Jack Spicer a Beat poet? A Magical poet? A Post-Avant poet? (Maybe the Martians let him travel in time so he could whisper "post-avant..." in Ron Silliman's ear.) Surely Spicer's work was "relegated to obscurity," thanks largely to his own preferred publishing practices, just as Emily Dickinson's work was self-relegated.

The process by which poets gain an audience in the long run would be worth serious study—something I don't have the interested or temperament to do. (It seems right up Seth's alley, I think.) But based on accounts of various poets' careers that have crossed my path, I'm willing to bet that "relegated" poets who happen to be excellent, as well as poets who achieve recognition early on, all have their work preserved and promoted at first by small groups of friends and family who loved them, then by small groups of contemporary readers, poets, editors, and/or scholars who discover their work through the efforts of those friend/family groups. (We see this at work right now in the effort of Peter Gizzi and Kevin Killian to preserve and promote the work of Jack Spicer.) At some point certain poets' work finds its way into critical articles, anthologies, and textbooks, and from there into classrooms—from which they are either remembered or forgotten by the students who read them. Very few poets, whether the are lionized or ignored in their lifetimes, ever enter that phase. And the next phase is even more exclusive: the poet is granted, by general consensus, a niche in the Canon, from which promontory his work reaches a broad and diverse audience who have no clue about the early phases of the process that have placed the poet's work before them.

Of course, no poet is ever "safely" in the Canon. As cultures change, tastes change—and the Canon expands or contracts. Now and then devotees of ejected poets—the equivalent of some long gone friend/family group—manage to resurrect this or that reputation. But the fact is, I think (this would take some statistical work to prove), that a poet who manages to hang on to Canonical status for 100 years or more is fairly secure. But all one needs to do is peruse popular textbooks and anthologies published 100 years ago to see that the Canon building process is messy. Editors, scholars and even fellow poets are often off the mark in their judgments of contemporaries—assuming, of course, that the judgments of later generations matters at all. The fact of this historical inability to judge ones contemporaries sets up an historically typical dynamic, in which fellow poets sneer at scholars and at other poets, while both poets and scholars berate the poor editors—who after all are just trying to turn a buck by catering to what they think the audience might want.

So what's a poet to do? Well, hitching one's star to some school of poetry or other has always been a popular alternative. Members of the "school" (a friend/family group) read and critique and promote each other; they usually develop attitudes, if not actual theories, that justify their practice, along with a special jargon to use in talking about their practice. (Jargon—the often overpowering Eau de Theory—is always useful to such groups, as Marxist criticism and the hand gestures of Freemasonry illustrate.) If the school gains any kind of currency (was that a pun?), it spins theories from the attitudes that justify the practice. Of course, theory sometimes precedes practice, as we see when we examine the shaping influence of Rosicrucianism on Yeats or Freudian theory on Breton.

Like Yeats and Breton, Post-Avant writers have rooted their practice in theories, primarily linguistic ones. From their investment in theories they've developed attitudes, the chief one (it seems to me) being that readers who don't embrace these poets' theories are somehow at fault. From that attitude it follows, as the night the day, that poets who choose not to write in ways that require their readers to put on theory-glasses (akin to those cardboard 3-D specs one had to wear to enjoy Roger Corman's The Little Shop of Horrors) ... well, those poets are bad because they encourage readers in their sin—that is, in their failure to give a crap about theories. These evil poets, these bêtes noires of the Post-Avant practitioner, are given the jargon-appellation of "Quietist," and are consigned to "The School of Quietude," much as Dante consigned Ghibellines to hell.

Which brings me around to Seth's continuing attempts to create descriptors for various kinds of poetry, "Cognitive-Semantic" being the one he focuses on in this post. I would simply say that such descriptors may be helpful to certain kinds of readers, but because they are rooted in specialized, jargon-ridden theories that are controversial even within the disciplines from which they derive, these categories are useless to whatever readers the best of these poets will ultimately find—if they find them.

And while I thoroughly agree with his laying down the gauntlet to Ron's readership regarding SoQ and Post-Avant distinctions, I'd rather see him lay down the gauntlet for himself, and take a single poem by Joshua Beckman, or Peter Gizzi, or Matthea Harvey, or Catherine Wagner, and demonstrate what marks it as a "cognitive-semantic" poem. I'd love to see him do it without referring to abstruse linguistic or psychological theories and without using specialist jargon. If it can't be done—and if it can't be put into everyday English—then I suggest he find another way to get at what makes these writers so similar and so excellent.

8 comments:

brian a j salchert said...

Read Seth's post, and Klassnik and Knott really add color in the comment space.

The other day I did a Joshua Beckman search, and there is a video of him reading a short poem that has a flarfy flavor to it;
but he is at AAP and I especially like his "Oh, atlas" poem.

All of a sudden everyone is building forts. I wonder who is standing watch from night to night.

Today I created a stock market blog. I'm just a timorous mouse.
So I'm gettin' the hell out of Dodge.

Seth Abramson said...

Hi J.,

If you click on the link in the middle of the post--the word "Cognitive-Semantic" has been made into a hyperlink--it takes you to a post from several days ago in which I did exactly as you asked. Three times, actually. I took three poets and explained their strains of Cognitive-Semantic semiotics, without jargon. Best,

Seth

Joseph Hutchison said...

Thanks, Brian, for steering me back to the comment stream on Seth's blog. I left my own there just now regarding Knott and Spicer.

And Seth—see my post responding to your comment in detail....

Dark Fantom said...

Joseph,

In a previous post on this topic you pondered what under-40 poets think of this debate. As a young poet/visual artist (shy of 25), I appreciate any debate that attempts to better describe a poets work. Labels can be reductive and are often vague and ignore large swaths of work- as has been pointed out in this debate. The point that I havent seen mentioned on any of the posts and comments on all the various blogs entertaining this topic, is the larger one of the tenor. As a young poet, I'm utterly unimpressed with all of the bitching and mud-slinging. This is poetry. Not politics. The younger generation of poets- and my generation of artists, in general- has grown up amid infinite access to imagery and works, and within an increasingly broad culture which mixes styles, sights, and words from every part of the globe and throughout history. The anger on both sides of this are childish. Young poets will take from the classical and the contemporary, to create future art.

my post on the subject, for any interested: http://darkfantom.blogspot.com/2009/01/this-soq-post-avant-thing.html

Joseph Hutchison said...

Hello, DF—

I'm intrigued by the conclusion of your post:

"There have been times throughout history when the avant-garde has been reviled, and times in history when the classical has been reviled. They both seem to think the other will someday go away.

Neither will. Because they represent sides of a vast spectrum of human taste and interest. Because they are both true. And they both make up the present. The only thing that can change is that people can learn to be more respectful of other people’s art."

First, because I agree wholeheartedly with being "respectful of other people's art." I didn't think we've been arguing about art so much as about ways of framing art. What I object to is not avant-garde art but the theoretical pronouncements that seek to frame it and, it seems to me, justify it on the strength of the frame.

Second, because I don't think "avant-garde" is opposed to "classical". Avant-garde becomes classical, or it becomes irrelevant. Robert Browning, who was once so scandalous and inventive, is now "classical," and his methods—especially the lyric narrative—are dismissed my the post-avants, as the lyric "I" of Whitman has been dismissed. Good for them! But let's see which of the post-avants ultimately become achieve "classical" status. I suspect we'll have a very long wait....

Dark Fantom said...

Joseph,

I do apologize if in my haste I didnt make clear that my comment about the tenor of the debate was not directed at you, nor at Hutchison. But rather a general response to what I took as a general question from you on your previous post, to poets under 40.

I wouldnt say you specificaly have said anything that I felt damaged the discussion, but this new topic strand going through various blogs these past couple weeks has yielded some disrespectful comments (to say the least) from both sides. And as I'm sure I dont have to tell you, this level of condescending quips and discussion is common among the poetry blogosphere, apt as it is to descend into juvenile comment bickering hell, on every blog from Silliman on down.

I guess I would say that though I feel versed enough that I could attempt delving into the details of relevance, description vs. label, staying-power, etc; my honest reaction is that I dont have much interest in getting involved in it. I appreciate those who do, like yourself, and Hutchison, because I think it's a noble goal- to better qualify the words we as poets use to decribe ourselves. And to fight laziness of poor terminology. But ultimately, I will describe poets on their individual terms, and leave the grouping to those who find it important.

And actualy, it seems a bit of an absent perspective in the discussion thus far, the fact that the Quietude title, passive agressive as it is, is even up for consideration as a legitimate label for a sect of poets. That in itself seems to belay much of the real problem- and the one I take issue with. People like Silliman expend much energy to drive terms like that into the vernacular,and it seem counter-productive. Both to quelling the "rift" that so many poets keep talking about, and to actualy using words that have any meaning- one could equate it to if Bush re-named the Middle East as a new country called "Axis of Eviltude." Even if everyone said it over and over again until it totaly replaced all other country names in the region, it still wouldnt describe the region, but rather describe the opinion of the region by one asshole.

As for your second point, what I said is not in conflict with your point that "the avant-garde becomes classical." I agree completely. But that doesnt change the fact that a new avant-garde is only formed in contrast with a current classical. It's cyclical; it's both.

As for your objection to what you call a "frame," though I'm not positive I know exactly what type of pronouncement you're refering to, I'll attempt to respond- please correct me if I've misunderstood you. It sounds like you're refering to the conceptual strategy of the idea of a piece of art being more important than the level of traditional conceptions of craftsmanship i.e. Duchamp, Warhol, Kosuth, Hirst, Goldsmith, Fitterman, etc. If this is the case, I would suggest that maybe you are missunderstanding the intentions of the work: the "art" is not separate from the "frame." They are one- the frame is the point. These ideas go back long before post-avant poetry (articulated by Henry Flint in 1961).

Various poets, Jackson Mac Low, for example, were making conceptual work that has now become very influential on post-avant poetry. I'm not quite sure I see where a criticism like this is headed, to be honest- one of the best points I thought Hutchison made was that a title like post-avant doesnt really mean much specificaly. It really means poets working after langpo, that have combined those inovations with narrative, lyric, confession, etc. I realise the work does not appeal to you, but thats quite a broad stroke to dismiss all post-avant writers as destined for irrelevance. it makes me beleive you just dont have an appreciation for the sensabilities of conceptual/flarf/post-avant (what have you) work, in order to asses accomplishments in the aesthetic.

Personaly, I like Browning. I love Whitman, Frost, Pope, and Hill as well. But I also love Pound, Olson, Zukofsky, Silliman, Ceravalo, Goldsmith, Berrigan, and Fitterman. And so many in between. To me, it's just as thoughtless to dismiss Whitman, as it was for people to dismiss Berrigan on your comment stream. Its the same as how figurive painting was "out" in the 80s and 90s, and is "back" now. SHould that mean figure painters shouldnt have been painting the figure the whole time? Of course not. I think its important not to get caught up in taking the thoughtless comment of one person and converting into a thoughtless response. If someone dismisses Whitman, does that truly mean all associated with a vague poetic style to that person should be dismissed?

thanks so much for the great discussion, and thoughtful response to my post, by the way.

- Dark Fantom

Joseph Hutchison said...

Dear DF—

"... ultimately, I will describe poets on their individual terms, and leave the grouping to those who find it important."

Amen!

And I think I've expended far too much energy on all of this, all to make the point—badly, I guess—that the labels and the theories distract from the work. I understand the frame being part of the work, if the artist wants it to be; it's when others apply their own frame in such a way that it dominates the framed work that I get exasperated.

Also, as I said in a comment posted elsewhere, "It's important to distinguish those who claim "post-avant" membership from those are annexed into membership by the firm of Silliman, Bernstein, Kubitschek & McMingus, whether or not they agree to the annexation. Many fine poets were unwillingly grouped into the New York School, for example, which made it easier for critics to engage in mass character and aesthetic assassination. Which is one reason why I refuse whatever labels might be slapped on my back like a 'kick me' sign, and why—for the life of me—I'll never understand the urge of any writer to become a joiner."

Cheers!

Joe

Dark Fantom said...

Joe,

Amen.

Best,

- DF